Virtual Trumpet Studio - Double Tonguing

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John Sheets View Drop Down

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Joined: 22 May 2007
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Topic: Double Tonguing
Posted: 06 Feb 2010 at 15:03

Hey all.....

So here's what I'm working on and could use some help with. Among many fine pieces of music my community band is playing for our April concert is "The Cowboys" by John Williams. I'm sure most of you have played this so you know that it is a fairly challenging piece.

I have the 1st trumpet part and the conductor told us rather then play the split rythmic figures to just double tongue the main theme.

When Alex and I last addressed double tonguing she had me use "Da ga" in place of "Ta Ka" This seems to work well for me.

The problem is that I can do the "Da ga" pretty fast as long as the horn is not on my face. When I have the horn on my face my speed is cut almost in half.

Any ideas out there for how I might be able to improve my double tonguing and keep this very important part of the piece from sounding like noodle soup?

"Trombones; damn it! Not breaking that musical phrase is far more important then your having to breath! - Jim Skura director of my community band.

Glenn Roberts View Drop Down

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Joined: 21 May 2007
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Posted: 06 Feb 2010 at 21:21

John, multiple tonguing is all about developing strength in the tongue muscle. Whatever syllable you use, the strength & endurance must be established and it must be clear.

A few ideas: In your Arban, go to the page that begins double tonguing, and use all k or ga (again, whichever you use, as long as it works well for you) on the first study. Then alternate 4 da and 4 ga. Then alternate. Start in F as written, using da-ga as Alex had you do, then descend chromatically through all keys; on each new key bump up 1 tempo marking.

Use the ga also on the little dittes at the beginning (the dotted eighth/sixteenth, paired 16th/eighth combinations). It might also help to work the triple tonging studies as well, the same way.

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in Nature...Life is either daring adventure or nothing." Helen Keller[

Dave Kalinoff View Drop Down

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Joined: 23 May 2007
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Posted: 07 Feb 2010 at 13:05

John,

I feel for ya. When I stopped playing for a while, and decided to pick the horn back up again, the first thing that goes, and the last thing to come back is my multiple tonguing. I do realize I just don't put the time in to woodshed on my issues, but it is frustrating as heck. I am like most folks and will play what I sound good at vs. working on what I should.

If there must be trouble, let it be in my day so that my child may have peace.

Thomas Paine 1737-1809

John Sheets View Drop Down

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Joined: 22 May 2007
Location: Metro Detroit
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Posts: 891

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Posted: 07 Feb 2010 at 14:56

Ok this is a good start! Glenn thanks so much... I'll work on that in my next practice session following your advice.

Dave; yeah.... Ever since my wife and I had our son Connor my practice time has become close to non-existent. I'm actually taking my horn into work and using my luch hour to practice when I can. I just want to be sharp and crisp in my attacks rather then smooth and connected.

Thanks guys... Keep em' coming.

"Trombones; damn it! Not breaking that musical phrase is far more important then your having to breath! - Jim Skura director of my community band.

Derek Reaban View Drop Down

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Joined: 06 Jun 2007
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Posts: 650

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Posted: 08 Feb 2010 at 11:27

John,

I’m with Dave on this one. Multiple tonguing is the first thing to slip in my playing if I neglect it even for one day. I’ve gotten to the point where my clarity is very good and my velocity is not bad either, but if I don’t do even a little every day I take several steps back, and it’s a good 3-4 days before everything is clicking again.

When I spent a lot of time on multiple tonguing in high school and college I always wondered why I worked so hard for very little payback. I put in a great deal of time, and it only got marginally better, and if I missed a day back then, it was weeks before I got the right feel back, if ever. Very frustrating!

I discovered, later in life, that my K tongue was happening too far back in my mouth. Say Ka or Ga and feel where that happens in your mouth. Now say the letter Q. Where does that happen in your mouth? It’s much more forward in your mouth! That’s where I produce the sound on my K articulation and the clarity difference is night and day between K or G for me.

Take out your tuning slide and articulate 4 quarter notes with a T syllable (your standard articulation). Listen to the clarity of the sound. Now articulate 4 quarter notes with a K or G articulation (further back in your mouth). It’s a different sound than the T. Now try articulating with Q. This more forward articulation should have a much clearer sound and be very close to your T articulation.

I do these exercises in my car to and from work. T T T T, Q Q Q Q, etc. I do these with a little rest in between, but I do a LOT of these every day. Eventually, everything broke free and my velocity took off with this improved clarity. We can definitely do some of these together the next time you’re in Phoenix. This is more of a long term fix to this issue. For your concert, just do those several lines from your music over and over (trying to get the Q to work if you can). Eventually it will become familiar to you and will click.

Good luck!

Edited by Derek Reaban - 08 Feb 2010 at 11:29

Derek Reaban
Tempe, Arizona
Symphony of the Southwest / Tempe Symphonic Wind Ensemble<

Bill Bergren View Drop Down

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Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Des Moines, IA
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Posted: 08 Feb 2010 at 17:26

Multiple tonguing problems are most often caused by delivery of the air, which incidentally is usually the first thing to go when taking time off. Do the bucket. Bell 1/2" under water,play long tones with small, steady bubbles. Then Clarke #2, then full octave chromatics, then maybe a Getchell, then double tongue. When tonguing, the sound is in the AA, not the D or G.

Bill Bergren

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John Sheets Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orchestra* Joined: 22 May 2007 Location: Metro Detroit Online Status: Offline Posts: 891	Quote Reply Topic: Double Tonguing Posted: 06 Feb 2010 at 15:03
	Hey all..... So here's what I'm working on and could use some help with. Among many fine pieces of music my community band is playing for our April concert is "The Cowboys" by John Williams. I'm sure most of you have played this so you know that it is a fairly challenging piece. I have the 1st trumpet part and the conductor told us rather then play the split rythmic figures to just double tongue the main theme. When Alex and I last addressed double tonguing she had me use "Da ga" in place of "Ta Ka" This seems to work well for me. The problem is that I can do the "Da ga" pretty fast as long as the horn is not on my face. When I have the horn on my face my speed is cut almost in half. Any ideas out there for how I might be able to improve my double tonguing and keep this very important part of the piece from sounding like noodle soup?
	"Trombones; damn it! Not breaking that musical phrase is far more important then your having to breath! - Jim Skura director of my community band.

Glenn Roberts Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Moderator Group Joined: 21 May 2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1137	Quote Reply Posted: 06 Feb 2010 at 21:21
	John, multiple tonguing is all about developing strength in the tongue muscle. Whatever syllable you use, the strength & endurance must be established and it must be clear. A few ideas: In your Arban, go to the page that begins double tonguing, and use all k or ga (again, whichever you use, as long as it works well for you) on the first study. Then alternate 4 da and 4 ga. Then alternate. Start in F as written, using da-ga as Alex had you do, then descend chromatically through all keys; on each new key bump up 1 tempo marking. Use the ga also on the little dittes at the beginning (the dotted eighth/sixteenth, paired 16th/eighth combinations). It might also help to work the triple tonging studies as well, the same way.
	"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in Nature...Life is either daring adventure or nothing." Helen Keller[

Dave Kalinoff Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orchestra* Joined: 23 May 2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 253	Quote Reply Posted: 07 Feb 2010 at 13:05
	John, I feel for ya. When I stopped playing for a while, and decided to pick the horn back up again, the first thing that goes, and the last thing to come back is my multiple tonguing. I do realize I just don't put the time in to woodshed on my issues, but it is frustrating as heck. I am like most folks and will play what I sound good at vs. working on what I should.
	If there must be trouble, let it be in my day so that my child may have peace. Thomas Paine 1737-1809

John Sheets Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orchestra* Joined: 22 May 2007 Location: Metro Detroit Online Status: Offline Posts: 891	Quote Reply Posted: 07 Feb 2010 at 14:56
	Ok this is a good start! Glenn thanks so much... I'll work on that in my next practice session following your advice. Dave; yeah.... Ever since my wife and I had our son Connor my practice time has become close to non-existent. I'm actually taking my horn into work and using my luch hour to practice when I can. I just want to be sharp and crisp in my attacks rather then smooth and connected. Thanks guys... Keep em' coming.
	"Trombones; damn it! Not breaking that musical phrase is far more important then your having to breath! - Jim Skura director of my community band.

Derek Reaban Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orchestra* Joined: 06 Jun 2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 650	Quote Reply Posted: 08 Feb 2010 at 11:27
	John, I’m with Dave on this one. Multiple tonguing is the first thing to slip in my playing if I neglect it even for one day. I’ve gotten to the point where my clarity is very good and my velocity is not bad either, but if I don’t do even a little every day I take several steps back, and it’s a good 3-4 days before everything is clicking again. When I spent a lot of time on multiple tonguing in high school and college I always wondered why I worked so hard for very little payback. I put in a great deal of time, and it only got marginally better, and if I missed a day back then, it was weeks before I got the right feel back, if ever. Very frustrating! I discovered, later in life, that my K tongue was happening too far back in my mouth. Say Ka or Ga and feel where that happens in your mouth. Now say the letter Q. Where does that happen in your mouth? It’s much more forward in your mouth! That’s where I produce the sound on my K articulation and the clarity difference is night and day between K or G for me. Take out your tuning slide and articulate 4 quarter notes with a T syllable (your standard articulation). Listen to the clarity of the sound. Now articulate 4 quarter notes with a K or G articulation (further back in your mouth). It’s a different sound than the T. Now try articulating with Q. This more forward articulation should have a much clearer sound and be very close to your T articulation. I do these exercises in my car to and from work. T T T T, Q Q Q Q, etc. I do these with a little rest in between, but I do a LOT of these every day. Eventually, everything broke free and my velocity took off with this improved clarity. We can definitely do some of these together the next time you’re in Phoenix. This is more of a long term fix to this issue. For your concert, just do those several lines from your music over and over (trying to get the Q to work if you can). Eventually it will become familiar to you and will click. Good luck! Edited by Derek Reaban - 08 Feb 2010 at 11:29
	Derek Reaban Tempe, Arizona Symphony of the Southwest / Tempe Symphonic Wind Ensemble<

Bill Bergren Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orchestra Joined: 04 Sep 2007 Location: Des Moines, IA Online Status: Offline Posts: 123	Quote Reply Posted: 08 Feb 2010 at 17:26
	Multiple tonguing problems are most often caused by delivery of the air, which incidentally is usually the first thing to go when taking time off. Do the bucket. Bell 1/2" under water,play long tones with small, steady bubbles. Then Clarke #2, then full octave chromatics, then maybe a Getchell, then double tongue. When tonguing, the sound is in the AA, not the D or G.
	Bill Bergren